A Conversation with Lawrence Liu

In February 2015, the Duke-UNC China Leadership Summit brought together 100 students from 24 universities across the US and China to North Carolina for a three-day academic conference on US-China relations. During one of the hectic lunch breaks, DEAN editor Emily Feng sat down with speaker Lawrence Liu to discuss his experiences working as the Staff Director of the Congressional-Executive Commission on China, a position he held until January 2015. 

Liu leads a seminar on "Congress, China, Human Rights and Trade" at Duke's Sanford School of Public Policy
Note: This transcription has been slightly edited to preserve flow and improve readability. 

What was the level of knowledge or preparation when it came to discussions about U.S.-China relations, or about what was happening in China on matters that have import on U.S. politics?
 
The Commission was created specifically as an information gathering organization. We have staff members who are fluent in Mandarin, could read Chinese, and who have spent quality time in China, Hong Kong or Taiwan. They brought a lot of good background to help us gather information. The Commission became a place where we did a lot of good reporting on what was happening in China. We were able to gather a lot of primary source materials in China. By primary source, I mean Chinese-language government documents, speeches, policy statements that we were able to help report on and contextualize for policy makers. Our primary constituents were members of Congress and executive branch members who were on the Commission. We were also writing for a much broader audience, including the general public as well as people who had a special interest in the work that we do including human rights organizations, NGOs, and other foreign governments who take similar positions on human rights.


What are some of the topics that you think there was the most miscommunication about between members of government?

I think what will be probably be one of the hottest issues domestically in terms of the debate over our relationship with China is trade, and specifically the bilateral investment treaty and the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Members of Congress would like to play a more active role in terms of how we go about negotiating these agreements and making sure that these agreements contain robust protections for labor and the environment, as well as address issues like currency manipulation and unfair competition from state-owned enterprises. I’m sure that there are many members of Congress who are concerned that the negotiations so far have not been as transparent as they should be with respect to letting the American people know what the potential benefits and costs are, and whether or not we can count on China to follow through on these commitments. Congress will be looking to drive the conversation and to get the American people more involved in that debate.


And what role does the Congressional Executive Committee play in that?

I think we help people understand to what extent China has shown a willingness to comply with international standards. To the extent that China makes new commitments based on these agreements, we will help inform the debate regarding China’s track record on complying with other agreements like the World Trade Organization.


If you had to summarize China’s institutional memory in regards to compliance with human rights and labor standards?

I think the conventional wisdom that holds true in many cases is that China has made a lot of promises. With the WTO, China made some 700 commitments, and another almost 300 through its various dialogues with the United States. China has signed on to all kinds of UN covenants and treaties. China has really sought to participate in the international society and system. What we’ve found is that there is conflict between what China is willing to do and the implementation side. This really points to the general problem of rule of law and asks to what extent China has developed a system where law is enforced fairly and equally [so that] you can rely on the legal system and not worry that political considerations will trump the law. Unfortunately, with China what we’ve seen is that too often politics and the interest of the Communist Party has gotten in the way of that, whether in terms of putting a human rights activist in jail on trumped-up charges, or deciding that we are not going to comply with this commitment because we want to help our economy. China has been implicated in a number of state-sponsored thefts of intellectual property by means of cyber and other ways. That clearly benefits China’s economy, and the Chinese government has been willing to either turn a blind eye or actively support it.


Do you think that the implementation side of human rights or other civil society protections will get better? ... A lot of people keep talking about how Xi Jinping is a strong leader, and there has been a crackdown on some of the capriciousness and corruption that plays in all levels of Chinese government. At the same time, we see more orders from higher levels to crack down on human rights lawyers. I wonder what your read is on that. 

I think the general trajectory has been negative under President Xi Jinping. There was some hope with some of the initial statements that he made regarding the rule of law and the role of the Constitution in the political system, which I think gave some people within China some hope to try to hold President Xi accountable for those commitments. They thought the campaign on corruption was a potentially hopeful sign, and actually tried to call for greater transparency and disclosure of officials’ assets, and … were put in jail. So I think the response has been that you can’t even talk about things like constitutionalism and Western notions of the rule of law, and there has been certainly an ideological tightening and an even greater restriction on the Internet. People are now unable to access Gmail accounts. It’s a really tough time. I have not seen any tangible signs that it could get better any time soon.


At the risk of oversimplifying things, among policymakers there seems to be a binary between China as a friend and ally and China as a competitor whose gains come at the expense of the U.S. What’s your read on the attitudes towards China in the policy world?

I think it’s partly oversimplifying, but it’s easy to see why people think that. They are often just sound bites in political advertisement. In reality, it’s a lot more complex. I think there are a lot of legitimate grievances regarding China’s trading policies, for example, and its human rights record. That’s not inherently anti-China…it’s concern over the Chinese government’s actions. In many ways it’s supporting the people of China. The divisions of anti-China and pro-China are not entirely accurate. I think there’s legitimate concern about China’s leadership, and voicing those concerns is not meddling with China’s internal affairs per se, but that’s what countries do when you are a major power—the U.S. gets criticized all the time.


What advice do you have for people with backgrounds in East Asian Studies looking to work in policy and government?

My advice would be to use your time during and after college to learn the language as much as you can and to spend time in the country you are interested in. Those experiences are harder to get the older you get. Now is the best time to solidify those skills and travel. 

(Transcribed by: Angie Shen)

Lawrence Liu was formerly the Staff Director of the Congressional-Executive Commission on China, a bipartisan commission created by Congress to monitor human rights and rule of law developments in China. Mr. Liu was appointed by then chairman U.S. Senator Sherrod Brown of Ohio to serve as CECC deputy staff director from May 2011 to December 2012, and as staff director from February 2013 to January 2015. Mr. Liu previously spent three years as a corporate attorney in New York at Sullivan & Cromwell LLP, where he also spent several months in the firm's Beijing office. Mr. Liu was a Fulbright fellow to Taiwan and also worked as a journalist for the Taiwan News.

Emily Feng is a senior at Duke University and president of the Duke East Asia Nexus.